Have Your Products Been Tested And

Are They Proven To Be Safe and Effective?

 

A long Story of a Simple Inquiry

by Bob Andolina

 

Times are changing and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon to offer nutritional supplements. The problem for the consumer is how do they know whom to trust? With so many products already on the market and new ones being introduced everyday, how can anyone be really sure they are getting nutritional products that will provide them with the health benefits that the company who is selling them is claiming?

Below is a story of an inquiry I personally made to a company that was initially introduced to me by a person that I was introducing to Shaklee products. She asked me if I knew about a soy product on the market that claims to be the #1 soy product doctors recommend. When I asked her how she knew this, she said that the company claims it on their web site. I asked her if the company provided any proof that their products produced results, which they were claiming to provide. She said yes and that they do all the research with many well known doctors and scientists at leading hospitals and nutritional research firms.

Even though I have heard this type of thing many times over my 20 years with Shaklee, and in every case had found these claims to be misleading, I thought that maybe there was another company besides Shaklee who really did test their products before they put them on the market. I thought they might also have their research published to support their claims. She asked me if I would check out their web site and get back to her with my findings and I agreed to do so.

I spent approximately an hour reviewing all of their information on their web site and could not find one clinical cited study to support their product claims. They did have references to other studies done on Soy, such as the American Heart Association and the FDA, but as far as their product, there was none.

Most companies will do this kind of piggyback thing to promote their product without ever saying their product has been proven to provide these same results. I even found one company who uses Shaklee’s published fiber study to promote their fiber product. Of course they claim theirs is better but they do not offer any support for making this claim, nor do they have any published studies on their product. 

 In order to provide a fair evaluation of this company, I decided to email them questions inquiring about their studies and they responded, but not to my direct questions. If you read between the lines of their answers to my questions, you will see this for yourself.   I made some notes along the way to point out a few ways companies may try to get around your questions when they don't have the answer you want from them.    I also added some other experiences that I have had over the 20 years I have been with Shaklee. It could be as simple as a company answering yes or no, but what you will find will surprise you when you see how this all played out.

For the average consumer who has not done much study in this field, their responses may seem passable because most people want to believe in the company’s integrity. Unfortunately, most companies take advantage of this and the realization that most consumers believe whatever they read and don’t investigate any further. I think you may even get a laugh at times when you see what they offer, or should I say, do not offer, when it comes to any kind of proof on their product for safe and effective results.

Please keep in mind that I am not writing this to put any company or person down, even if I may seem to be doing so at times. Things got a little heated and since this is a copy of what took place, I hope you will keep that in mind and understand I do not want offend anyone who may read it. In fact, I have placed an X to blank out any names throughout this paper, for I am only relating the facts as they happened so that you may be better equipped the next time you hear about a company and the claims they make.

I am writing this because I think it is about time people no longer get tricked by hyped advertising and instead, know how to deal with companies who wish we were all just stupid consumers. Do check these companies out carefully, and use some of the information below when you do.

 Before we begin, I want you to first know the answers to two questions, which the FDA gave when asked about the assurance of safety and regulations on the advertising of dietary supplements.

 Question: Who assures the safety of dietary supplements?

As with food, federal law requires manufacturers of dietary supplements to ensure that the products they put on the market are safe. But supplement manufacturers do not have to provide information to FDA to get a product on the market, unlike the food additive process often required of new food ingredients. FDA review and approval of supplement ingredients and products is not required before marketing.

Source: Excerpted from FDA Consumer, September - October 1998: An FDA Guide to Dietary Supplements

 Question: Who regulates the advertising of dietary supplements?

FTC regulates claims made in the advertising of dietary supplements, and in recent years, that agency has taken a number of enforcement actions against companies whose advertisements contained false and misleading information. The actions targeted, for example, erroneous claims that chromium picolinate was a treatment for weight loss and high blood cholesterol. An action in 1997 targeted ads for an ephedrine alkaloid supplement because they understated the degree of the product's risk and featured a man falsely described as a doctor. Source: Excerpted from FDA Consumer, September - October 1998: An FDA Guide to Dietary Supplements

 You can see why we need to be careful. Now read below how this went back and forth with a certain company I was investigating.  Read their answers carefully because at times it may sound good at a first glance and even shocking. 

As I said, I have placed a X on names and some of their web site addresses because I did not want to offer them free advertising. I figured if someone really wanted to spend the time looking them up on the web, it would be very easy for them to do so. However, after reading below, I would not understand why anyone would want to waste his or her time doing so.

Bob’s initial email to Xxxx:

A friend who she said that you have extensive research on your Xxxx Soy protein product led me to your web site.

I have spent about an hour reading over your site, but I cannot find any documented published clinical research on any of your products. Can you help me? I am interested in what you offer but I need to know if your product is proven safe as well as effective. 

Please provide me with a complete bibliography of all your research that has been accepted for publication in refereed or peer reviewed professional journals. What I'm looking for are independent, scientific studies or articles published in peer reviewed journals on your Soy product, such as the Journal of the American Medical Association.

I already know Soy itself has had many studies published on it's benefits, but with so many soy products on the market, I am only interested to learn about your soy product and it's published research and not on Soy in general. It is very important to me that I am using a product that is not only safe but also very effective.

Also, what can you tell me about the background of your medical staff at Xxxx Laboratories? Who is on the staff and what research works have they had published in the past on Soy Protein? Please let me know where I can go to get a copy of their work.

I hope you can understand my concern with so many companies claiming they have the best nutritional product on the market these days. I have had bad experiences with some of these products and only want to protect my family and myself.

I'm sure you have had many manuscripts submitted and accepted in reputable refereed journals with all the research you claim on your web site and all the doctors involved with your product. But I want to be sure before trying your product and telling others about it. I just can't seem to find this information at your web site. Thanks for your help; I hope to hear from you soon.
Bob    

Their Response to this email was:

Hello. Thank you for contacting us.  We understand your concerns. We recommend that you consume only natural soy protein products, and eat 4 to 6 servings per day to make sure you get the newly recommended 100 to 160 milligrams of soy isoflavones per serving, if you are not comfortable with anybody's products.

Due to patent-pending issues and “Non-use of name” clauses in our research contracts, we can’t disclose to you where current studies are being done. The hospitals would interpret it that we are using their name to “advertise” or “endorse” Xxxx (which we don¹t claim that any institute endorses Xxxx).

Several studies will be published on our results this year. Our studies are designed to be long-term, so they take awhile to complete. Again, due to patent-pending issues, we can¹t release the data at this time, but preliminary results are very positive.

Bob Comments: 

Keep in mind that they are already selling their product to the general public, long before any testing is completed for safety and effectiveness. Guess who is the real guinea pig here?

Xxxx’s reply continues on: 

Dr. Xxxx is the Medical Director of Xxxx Laboratories. At Xxxx Laboratories, Dr. Xxxx is in charge of research which involves designing and conducting randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies for Xxxx Soy. Xxxx Laboratories is currently conducting Xxxx soy protein studies at leading hospitals, in the areas of breast cancer, prostate cancer, menopause and heart disease.  

Dr. Xxxx is the Nutraceutical editor for Xxxx, a medical journal from Xxxx dealing with excellence in clinical trials. Dr. Xxxx also serves as a consultant for several nationally known healthcare leaders and companies. Xxxx Doctor-formulated Soy Protein is the #1 doctor-recommended soy because of fast results and great taste. You can learn more or get a free sample at http://www.Xxxx. Hope this helps you in your quest to find health. Best Regards, The Xxxx Team

Bob Comments: 

Well that sounded impressive with all the buzzwords tossed in but he really did not tell me anything. They also should have told me that the doctors on staff who they claim they have, are really only one doctor, Dr. Xxxx, the owner of the company and product.

Why did they not give me a straight answer to my question? All they had to say was that no studies were published on their product but that they are still working on it. Notice their Xxxx Team sent this to me.

Think about this for a moment. This would be like selling me a car and at the same time saying that they are still testing it to see if it is safe to drive. They then tell me to go ahead and buy it and let them know if it got me where I wanted to go, that is of course, if I’m still around! Why would anyone want to take a product if nobody knows if it works or if it is safe? Why not do the testing first like Shaklee does, and then market the product?

Bob replies to their email:

Thank you for your quick response. To make sure I understand you, are you saying that your Soy product is still in the study stage of testing and that no studies have been accepted and published at this point in time but there will be studies later this year? If I am correct, will you be able to keep my email address and email me when your studies get published in peer reviewed professional journals?

 You also said that Dr. Xxxx serves as a consultant for several nationally known healthcare leaders and companies but you did not list them. Could you let me know who these nationally known healthcare leaders & companies are so that I may be able to contact them just to be sure for my own well being?

Last, you said that your Xxxx Doctor-formulated Soy Protein is the #1 doctor-recommended soy because of its fast results and great taste. I'm confused because I don't know why doctors would recommend your soy as the "#1 doctor-recommended soy" if the results of your continuing studies have not yet been completed. Why would doctors recommend your soy as #1 for fast results if the results of your studies are not completed and have not yet undergone any peer review in any professional journals?

I hope you don't feel I'm being to careful, I just want to protect my family and the friends that I am in contact with from buying a product that may be dangerous for their health. As I said before, there are so many companies out there offering to sell their product to the consumer, that consumers like me need to be careful. I like the idea that you seem to be different then most, but I would like direct answers to my questions above before I take the next step. Your product looks good based on your website and if you could answer these questions for me I would be in a better position to make a decision.

Thanks again for your time and I'm really glad you make yourself available to answer questions that people like me have. I wish more companies would follow you. I look forward for your response.
Bob

Their Response to this email was:

Hello. Thank you for contacting us again.  Some early results for one of our breast cancer studies can be viewed at Xxxx We are looking at soy's anti-inflammatory properties. 

Bob Comments: 

I have gone to that link and only found a before and after picture that anyone could have drawn. If this is the only kind of proof a company has to offer on their product, then find a different company.

I don't know why they would be looking at soy's anti-inflammatory properties. That has already been proven with Shaklee's Soy Protein and Basics. To them, it seems like they feel they are onto a brand new discovery! Where have they been over the last 20 years?

The answer: Nowhere, because they have only been in business for 3 years!

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

To join our email list for research updates, including Xxxx research, visit: http://Xxxx and add your name. We produce a monthly newsletter that is very informative.

Bob Comments: 

If you go there and offer your email address, you may get a lot of hype sent to your email box, but if they don’t offer proof here, why in the world would they offer it in their newsletter? It is just one more way to keep on selling you until you give in, but we still have no proof on their Soy product at this point.   

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

We should also point out that the FDA and the American Heart Association both recommend soy protein to lower risk of heart disease. You may want to contact them to supplement your research questions as well. They both have excellent web sites at http://www.fda.gov and http://www.americanheart.org Over 7000 studies have now been published on soy or soy nutrients.  Do you believe any of the research? 

Bob Comments: 

Please do go to the FDA and the American Heart Association’s web site listed above, for they both offer great information. But the problem is, I never questioned the research on Soy. I told them up front in my first letter that I already knew about the research done on the health benefits of Soy. The only research I ever questioned them about (and I was very clear about this), was their research on their Soy product, on which there seems so far to be no research at all completed.

It is amazing how my question was twisted around to make it seem like I don't believe the research on the health benefits of soy. It is their diversionary method to avoid telling me the truth about their product.             

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

We can point you in the right direction, but if you don't believe the research, there is not much we can do for you. Because of such a great number of research studies and health claims issued by the government and American Heart Association, it is easy to see why doctors would recommend a great tasting soy product

Bob Comments: 

Does this mean that as long as it tastes good, doctors would recommend it without any regard as to the end result of using the product or the reason for using it in the first place? We are talking prevention here, are we not? And we do want to know it will provide the results and is safe, don’t we?

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

My advice to you to verify this is to go to Xxxx and buy all of their brands, then have a taste test at your home with your friends and family. You will be amazed at some of the products being sold in stores. The leading retail brand is Xxxx. We far exceed their publicly available sales volume via physicians.

Bob Comments: 

I guess if my friends and family say that it tastes good, that would be all that would be needed for me to know that it provides health protection. I hope that they have good taste buds when they show up at my home for this extensive and proven study.

By the way, Xxxx, which I never heard of, may be a leading retail brand recommended by doctors, but that does not say very much. Doctors would be the last place to go for nutrition advise unless you find one who has done extensive study on nutrition, but most have very little if any. You would not ask a basketball star for advice on playing baseball or a car mechanic for advice about brain surgery you are about to have, would you?                               

Xxxx’s reply continues on:   

The consultant list for Dr. Xxxx is confidential as I'm sure you can understand.  You can contact Xxxx to verify that he is a nutraceutical editor, or supply us a fax number and we will fax a recent article written for them by Dr. Xxxx to you. You may also want to purchase the book of Dr.Xxxx. She was on the Oprah show yesterday. She writes about Xxxx Soy in her new book.  You can visit her web site at Xxxx and click on the store button and you will see Xxxx in the food section. She is considered a thought leader in women's health care. 

Bob Comments: 

So now we go to a doctor who wrote an article or a thought leader doctor without any research background on Soy or any other nutrition product for that matter, to give us the proof we are looking for.

Yes, Dr. Xxxx helps women learn about prevention and may do a very good job of it, but this is nothing new, Dr. Shaklee started teaching it 85 years ago, and his mother taught it to him before that! But what does this have to do with any proven research on their product?

Dr. Xxxx promotes many different products that she uses on her web site. Is this all we need to know to be sure that a product is safe and provides results because a doctor uses it?  I know some doctors that hit the bottle pretty often but I certainly would not drink because they do.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

You can also visit Xxxx.com, the biggest health site on the internet. Xxxx corporation has listed Xxxx at the top of their list for soy protein companies. Click here: http://Xxxx

Bob Comments: 

Why would having a nutritional product listed on Xxxx's list make any difference? How do I know for sure this is the biggest health site on the Internet? Was a poll taken? I know of many health sites on the Internet, and many are well known ones. This one just happens to be provided by the drug companies. But why would it matter anyway? This is not proof that their product has been tested and found to be safe and effective. This is just more advertising hype, nothing more.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

You can also visit the leading menopause site, an AOL partner, at Xxxx to see how Xxxx is being used by hundreds of menopausal women with great results. Hope this helps! - Xxxx, RN for Dr. Xxxx

Bob Comments: 

I guess if they are partners with AOL that must mean something. Maybe AOL is the expert on Soy Protein. Where is the proof? There simply is none. Anyone can post testimonies; all companies do it. But we should never buy a nutritional product based on this only!

Notice that now Dr. Xxxx’s RN is now answering my questions. I guess the Xxxx Team does not get many people who want real answers to their questions instead of hype. So now I have been turned over to her.

Again, if I took an aspirin and my headache went away, would that mean my body is deficient in aspirin? Should I now take aspirin every day to prevent future headaches because it helped me feel better? If all the drug users say how good the drugs make them feel, I guess we should all run out and buy drugs.

If we know a product has helped someone feel better, then we should check out the product further to see what studies have been preformed on it and what company stands behind it. We should never use a product simply because someone said it helped them. This could be the start of our investigation, but should never be the end of it.

There are thousands of marketing companies offering nutritional products today which claim to do just about anything a person could ever want! They all have people saying how great they feel using these products, and my question to all of them is this: If your products are as good as what you say, then why not have them tested and then publish your results?

The answer to that question is that there is no proof that many of these products will do anything except cause people to get excited about the chance of earning a lot of money. One company even paid people $200 for their testimony on how much weight loss they had by using their product and then they used this to sell their product. I talked to one of these people who admitted to me, when he was no longer with the company, that he starved himself to get the $200!

That is why Shaklee conducts randomized, triple-blind, placebo-controlled studies on their products and then has these studies accepted and published in research journals for others to learn about their findings. Only after extensive testing do they ever offer the product to the market place.

Even when Bee Pollen was a hot product, and every company was out there selling it, Shaklee did not. Shaklee could have made a lot of money if they did, but their response was that there were no proven studies that Bee Pollen was needed by the human body and that, in some cases, it could be harmful to those who are allergic to Bees. They also said that the quality of the pollen could never be controlled because you can’t control where Bees get their pollen! That is what is called a responsible answer. By the way, after the Bee pollen was on the market for a while, reports came in that different people died after using it.

I once knew a woman who used over $100 per month of nutritional products from a company called Xxxx. She used them for over 6 months and kept telling me how good she was feeling and how much money I could make joining her. I told her I was happy with Shaklee and was not interested in switching brands, nor was I in it simply for the money.

I met up with her a year later and asked her how her Xxxx business was doing. She told me she no longer uses their products because she became ill and when she went to see the doctor, he did some blood work and told her she was deficient in vitamins! After spending over $100 per month in supplements and over 6 months of using them, she is told she has a vitamin deficiency!

I am only asking for the proof that their product will do what they claim it will do. I don't think this is a lot to ask from a company who is spending so much money advertising their product before they even know if it works and if it is safe in the long term. 

It has been this way for the 20 years I have been with Shaklee. I keep thinking that there has to be at least one other company out there that does what Shaklee does in their studies. However, here again, I find what I always find; I get the run around, my direct questions get unanswered, and I get a lot of hype, but no scientific substantiation. This is all I asked for, but instead they give me everything else.

At this point, I thought I would write one last time and I hoped to straighten them out on a few things. This is when I mentioned the word Shaklee, and then things really started to heat up!

At first, I wanted to ask them these questions as a consumer because I wanted to know how they would answer them. So in this last email, I wanted them to be educated a little and also let them know what consumers are beginning to demand from companies such as theirs and why. Little did I know where this would go.

Bob replies to their email

Thank you again. You ask me if I believe the research that has been done on soy. I already told you in my first letter to you that I knew about all the research done on soy and that I trust and believe it. What I was asking you is what research was done on your soy product in which you told me that it is still underway and has not yet been completed.

I understand what is involved in long-term studies. Even after you finish your study, you will need to summit it for others to look at before it ever has a chance to be published.

In 1985, JAMA, (Journal of the American Medical Association), reported it received 3,446 manuscripts for consideration. 54% of them were rejected at the first stage and out of the remaining 46% that were sent for outside peer review, only 18% were accepted for publication.

That means that only 285 out of 3,446 manuscripts make it to the point of being published!  The rest of the studies, 3,161, failed for one reason or another. They either found bad testing methods or no conclusive proof as to the claims that were being made.

They reported that this work involved a total of 1,575 peer reviewers from JAMA's panel of 4,500. After the article is published, it is then opened to the criticism of the entire scientific community. I believe this is the safest way to provide health products to the consumer before ever marketing it to them.

This is why I asked you if your product has been tested and proven safe and effective for use. I only know of one nutritional company that consistently has articles by its scientific staff accepted for publication by these prestigious refereed journals. Do you know about a company called the Shaklee Corporation?

Shaklee has around 100 published articles and they also have a great Soy Protein. In fact, they have had this soy protein available to the public for well over 30 years that I know of, maybe even longer. It has helped thousands of people around the world to better health and sells to about 47% of the protein market with repeat sales.

When my friend told me that you had the studies that prove your soy product does what you claim it does, I was glad to hear it and thought that maybe there would be one other company out there like the Shaklee Corporation and that I would be able to use and recommend your product as well. But I guess now I know she was just mistaken about what your web site really has to say and what you confirmed to me yourself.

You see vitamin E also has well known proven health benefits. But when one checks the different vitamin E supplements on the market which claim 400 I.U on their label, they find that most, if not all, do not contain 400 I.U. as their label states. Some contain no E at all but is being sold as a health benefit to consumers based on the known benefit studies that have been done on vitamin E.

I could show you the same thing on C, B-Complex and any other known and proven supplement. Soy is no different and soy products can list the amounts on the labels and make claims about the product, but without testing, nobody really knows what they are getting. Some companies even put in ingredients to give a person a feeling of more energy and the user swears they feel better when all along it was because of a stimulant they added to the product.

But I am glad that you are at least starting to look into the benefits of soy and at least beginning to do some studies on your product. Maybe you could contact Shaklee and perhaps they could save you some time and money by sharing what they have already done on Soy research. I think you would be impressed.

Thanks for your help and I will keep watching where you end up in your research in the years to come. We need more companies doing research like you are beginning to do and that Shaklee has been already doing for over 40 years and is leading the way for the field.

Nutritional products are here to stay and proven research will give consumers like myself the assurance we need to be sure the money we spend will not be wasted. But even more important, is that the products we use will do for us what the companies who produce them are claiming they will do; because they have been tested first for safety and effectiveness long before they ever bring them to the market.

Maybe you should consider holding off marketing your product until the final results come in. Then you will have something to be really proud of and we, the consumers, will tell the world! But on the other hand, what if you find after the studies come in on your product, that there is a long-term health risk for anyone using your product. What would you say to all of the people already using it? It is always better to be safe then sorry when we are talking about the health of a person.
Wish you the best,
Bob

Bob Comments: 

At this point, I thought that would be the end of the matter. But I touched a nerve and so now the owner of the company, who is also the head of their medical staff, becomes involved with me, the consumer. Now you will see how we go from asking a simple question about their product testing to defending Shaklee!

I have run into this kind of thing so many times before as I am sure other Shaklee people have over the years. Keep in mind that all along, all they had to say was that they are still doing research on their product and that no final results have been completed or published yet. That would have been honest and the end of it. But instead, we now move into other things that I think you will find very entertaining. I sure did!

Their Response to this email was:

Hello. Good to continue the dialogue with you! We love to help people find what's best for them.  I'm sorry to break this news to you, but the Shaklee protein is the EXACT same protein used in the leading Xxxx brand. I'm good friends with one of the Vice Presidents of the company that makes that protein for Shaklee and many other companies (such as the #2 Xxxx brand).  It is the very same - identical - and there is absolutely no difference in quality. Call Shaklee and ask them who makes their soy protein ingredient, and if they will tell you, they will say Xxxx. You can save $$$$ by simply buying it from Xxxx. If you are truly interested in the truth, you can ask me what brand it is and I will share that with you.

The reason Shaklee is so overpriced is because of the MLM component. The studies that I've seen Shaklee quote were done by the manufacturer, not on their protein itself. In fact, I called the company and had asked for references, but they couldn't answer them.

 
Bob Comments:   

Wow! Is he on the defensive or what! He said they love to help people find what’s best for them. Well then, why don’t you answer their direct questions when they ask if you love to help them so much? Anyone can make any statements and say they are true when they don’t have to back them up. I now understand why it is so easy for him to make false statements; his company reflects the same thing by misleading consumers.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

People with your passion do very well in MLM companies, thus I'm not surprised to see such a refreshing vigor! Keep up the good work yourself. We've had 1000's of Shaklee customers come to Xxxx once they learn the truth. Our product beat Shaklee 7:1 in a taste test, and you need 5 servings of Shaklee per day to equal 1 Xxxx in isoflavone content. All of the newer studies show that you need the Asian equivalent to get the full benefits of soy protein. One serving of Shaklee per day is less than the MINIMUM amount recommended by the world panel of soy experts in April of 2000, thus Shaklee is misguiding millions of people by only giving them a “psychological' dose of soy protein. You can download that reference for the experts recommendations at http:Xxxx.

Bob Comments: 

Here is a big mistake on his part, (world panel of experts). Who are they? Sounds like they are his friends at Xxxx. There is no sure recommended amount at this time because it is still being studied. Xxxx has taken it upon themselves to decide what people need and is giving it to them before the testing is complete and known to be safe! Why not continue to test before selling their product?

They may be figuring it this way: If a little can be helpful, then let’s overdose them with it and go around and say we have the most isoflavones on the market so we can sell a lot of it while it is hot news. Never mind about the research and testing, that takes too long and is very expensive. Let’s just go out and make some money and let others do the research, and we will use their research to promote our product.

This always happens when a nutritional ingredient is being talked about in the news media and the health benefits it has been shown to provide are very good. Many companies just want to jump on the bandwagon to strike it rich. Shaklee does not work this way, as you will see as later.

Shaklee has been recommending Soy Protein and it’s health benefits for well over 20 years! There have been many fads that have come and gone, and Shaklee never touched them, even when every other company was selling them. If it has not been proven safe or to be needed by the body, Shaklee will not sell it.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:  

Some questions from me:
1. I can't find Shaklee's research on their web site. Can you give me the link to examine the 100 studies?
2.  What are you currently paying for Shaklee soy?  I will provide a detailed price analysis for you.
3.  Does Shaklee have a medical staff that I can speak with about these issues?

Bob Comments: 

Now all of a sudden, he doesn’t seem to know about Shaklee and their research and not even that they have a medical staff. He also said I could save money by switching brands, but now he is asking me how much I pay for Shaklee. That’s really interesting don’t you think?

Did he not say that he has been helping to straighten Shaklee customers out about the truth, but all along he never thought to check into Shaklee himself to find out what the truth really was?

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

Finally, in regard to your JAMA research analysis, many irrelevant papers are submitted to top journals in hope for the fame associated with them, thus many are rejected, not because the studies were done incorrectly as you imply, but because they are not appropriate material for the target audience of JAMA, or there is simply not enough room.  Do you get the medical journal JAMA weekly?  I do, and it is a very thin publication.

Bob Comments: 

I tell him what JAMA reported about their own journal, and now he is telling me that JAMA is wrong.

I guess I should take his word instead of JAMA. After all, he is a doctor and JAMA only wrote their own journal. I guess this would mean if a great discovery came along, they would reject it because they could not fit it in their journal because it’s to thin.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

We look forward to continuing our dialogue with you. I'm away from the office, thus using a different email address. The top Shaklee distributor in our area became a devoted Xxxx fan after she learned all of the facts, particularly that Shaklee simply private-labels the protein from another company, and it can be bought cheap at Xxxx. Best Regards, Xxxx, MD
Xxxx, MD
CEO and Medical Director
Xxxx Laboratories

Bob Comments: 

When I received this email, I was taken back for a moment. Why is the owner of the company writing to me, and why is he spending so much of his time writing to put down Shaklee? Why did he not just tell me the truth about his product instead of throwing all of this unproven stuff at me?

Well, to say the least, I was quickly back to the keyboard to respond to him, but first I called Shaklee to check on a few things to be sure. After all, I am not claiming to know it all, but the remarks he made had my attention, and that is what he wanted.

Bob replies to their email:

I was shocked when I read your latest memo! I have met many Shaklee doctors, researchers and scientist and have yet to meet one who would make false statements about any company to build their company up.

They even try to avoid negative talk about any company even when they have confirmed solid facts on that company.

Shaklee simply does not need to do this kind of "make believe" thing, for they are very proud of their research and will stand behind it. Instead of talking down other companies to make themselves look good, they simply talk up the positive research they have done and have had published and the rest of the scientific community agrees with it. But I can understand what one might have to resort to if there are no other positive alternatives.

It would be very easy for me to say that I know one of the persons involved with your product production and that they told me that it is nowhere close to what your label states is in your product. I could go on and say they told me that Tom's corner store has the EXACT same soy protein as yours but sells it for half the price. Where does this get us?

We could go on and on about he said she said forever like little kids. Making these kinds of statements is not worth the time it takes to write them. As a doctor in your position, I am surprised to even have received this from you.  But I guess you have tried to answer my questions in a round about way so I will do many steps better then that by answering your statements and questions as direct as I can.

First you said you are good friends with one of the Vice Presidents of the company that makes the protein for Shaklee. Well let me be the first to tell you not to trust your good friend for any information about Shaklee.

Shaklee makes their own Protein in their own manufacturing plant. It is one of the largest and most advanced nutritional supplement facilities in the world. Rigid quality controls and modern production methods are used to manufacture high quality nutritional supplements such as Shaklee brand vitamins, minerals and herbal supplements.

Shaklee has invested over $125 million on research and development activities. Over $16 million alone has been invested in Shaklee's state-of-the-art Norman, Oklahoma manufacturing facility since its opening in 1979. A new $23.5 million pharmaceutical manufacturing facility was opened in Norman in 1998.

You said that “Shaklee protein is the very same - identical - and there is absolutely no difference in quality as the Xxxx brand”. Wrong again. Shaklee manufactures their own product and does not sell to other companies. No other label, other then a Shaklee label, will ever be found on any Shaklee nutritional product.

You said to ask Shaklee who makes their soy protein ingredient, and if they will tell you, they will say Xxxx. I will be getting a written statement from them next week on this and will forward you a copy.

However, for now I can tell you the person I did talk to in field commutations today never heard of Xxxx. But, like I said, I will forward you a written statement next week on this from Shaklee R&D.

You said, “The reason Shaklee is so overpriced is because of the MLM component”. This is a very old statement and one I have not heard in a long time. This is a statement that would be made only by one who does not have an educational background or understanding of Network Marketing. The exact opposite is true for there is no advertising cost such as you are paying to promote your product.

Word of mouth advertising is the most cost effective way to get a finished product to the end consumer. Many very large firms are discovering this and have entered the market such as Gillette, Time-Life, Colgate Palmolive, Rexall Drug, Coca Cola, MCI, US Sprint, AT&T and others. They are even now teaching this marketing concept in schools.

Network Marketing has also enjoyed many positive write-ups in Success, Money, Fortune and many other top magazines. In fact, it has gone so big that the author, John Milton Fogg, who wrote many of the articles for Success magazine, which were some of their best sellers when containing MLM stories, has now started his own successful magazine called Upline. It was so successful in the first year that he now has another magazine called Network Marketing and it is just as successful.

You said, "The studies that I've seen Shaklee quote were done by the manufacturer, not on their protein itself. In fact, I called the company and had asked for references, but they couldn't answer them”.

I must admit, I really don't understand this statement. First, Shaklee is the manufacturer so it must have been their study you saw. If you did not see any of their studies on their soy protein that does not mean they don't exist.

All one has to do is pick up one of their Product guides and on page 6 you will find a box with the heading 'Sustains Energy Hour After Hour', this is a graphic of the findings of Shaklee’s research done on our Shaklee IP and ESP. Or turn to page 57. There you will find over 40 published clinical studies sponsored by or involving Shaklee. Turn the page again and you will find another 36 published studies and if you wish, go on to the next 5 pages if you still want more!

Remember, I only asked you for one published study on your products, which you could not supply me!

You said you called Shaklee and asked for references but they couldn't answer them. I hope you were either calling the wrong number or you must be joking. Anyone can request and receive a Health Care Professionals Packet, which summarizes our research collection. Call or email Field Communications at fieldcomm@shaklee.com.

You said  "We've had 1000's of Shaklee customers come to Xxxx once they learn the truth." What truth is that? I find it very odd that out of 1000's of Shaklee customers, not even one ever bothered to ask Shaklee their side of this story. Not even this so called "top Shaklee distributor" in your area? I don't think she could have been to close to the top if she had no interest in finding out anything about her own company and just took your word for it. Did you really think I would believe all of this stuff?

You asked me three direct questions.

1. I can't find Shaklee's research on their web site. Can you give me the link to examine the 100 studies?

2. What are you currently paying for Shaklee soy? I will provide a detailed price analysis for you.

3.  Does Shaklee have a medical staff that I can speak with about these issues?

First, I answered number 1 above by telling you the pages in their product guide. But I do not know why you are even asking me questions 1 & 3. You made it sound like you already knew all about their product and research so why now ask me where you can get it? And why don't you already know about their medical staff? Yes they have a very good staff and I will be getting this information to you next week as well.

You told me more about what you believe about Shaklee in this one memo then you ever offered me about your own company's research over the last three memos each time I asked you direct questions about it. So I will again forward you a direct response from Shaklee regarding these questions next week for I want you to hear directly from them yourself.

As far as question number 2, do you really expect me to trust you to give me an honest price analysis after all of your false statements you made to me so far? I don't think so.

Now let me offer you some true information about soy: The following is from Pamela Manning, MS.RD., Director of Shaklee Scientific Affairs:

”You emphasize that one serving of your Xxxx is worth about five servings of Shaklee soy in terms of isoflavone content-- about 160 mg. vs. 30 mg. of soy isoflavones. Further, you state that 160 mg. of isoflavones is desirable because that is equal to "the daily Japanese soy diet".

Since no one really knows what constitutes an optimal intake of soy foods and isoflavones, typically, soy intakes in Asian countries are cited as a target level for daily consumption.

We feel that this 'typical intake' is a very reasonable justification for the amounts of isoflavones that one should consume from supplemental soy sources. After all, these populations have lower rates of heart disease and certain cancers which may be due, at least in part, to their consumption of soy.

 And, since we do not know the effects of very high intakes of isoflavones, it makes sense to stay within the isoflavone intake pattern ('typical intake') of Asian peoples.

Unfortunately, there is considerable confusion as to what constitutes typical soy intake among Asian populations. The figure cited by your company is not supported by an in depth evaluation of intake data from these (Asian) countries.

Dr. Mark Messina, a soy expert who has chaired the three International Soy Symposiums, recently compiled a comprehensive summary of existing data on soy and soy isoflavone intake among Asian populations.  He has shared this with Shaklee.

Dr. Messina looked at soy, protein from soy and isoflavone intake from a variety of sources: Food and Agriculture Organization, National Health Ministries' dietary surveys, epidemiological studies, and dietary records from clinical studies. Dr. Messina is hoping to submit this as a paper to a leading journal. The range of soy isoflavone intake is approximately 20-50 mg.

In Japan, the country with the highest intake, the best source of intake data found that the average amount of soy protein (not just soy foods) consumed daily is about 11.2 grams of protein for men and 8.3 grams for women. That translates to 38.8 mg. of mean isoflavone intake daily for men and 28.6 for women. This amount is fairly close to the amounts of isoflavones provided by a serving of Shaklee soy protein products: approximately 30 mg. of isoflavones.”

I would like to point out to you that you have noticed that Pamela Manning MS.RD, does give solid answers with names unlike what you offered me in your memos; (world panel of soy experts?). Shaklee has nothing to hide.

I will get back to you next week with even more information that I'm sure you are still unaware of after I receive a written statement from Shaklee pertaining to all of your statements you have written to me about over these last couple of days. Then you can direct questions to them as well if you like.

I hope I was somewhat helpful here and will talk again next week,
Bob

Their Response to this email was:

Hello Bob! Thanks for the additional information! I hope you didn't misinterpret my comments before as caustic. Shaklee is a quality company. I've never said otherwise.

Let's make a deal because I really like you tenacity and I want you to learn the truth. If we find out that Shaklee gets there protein from Xxxx (I believe the name of the soy protein is Xxxx) or another source, you will start using Xxxx soy protein, tell all of your friends/downline, and I'll give you the first year's supply at 25% discount.  Deal?

You clearly have been led to believe that Shaklee makes its own soy protein. This is your exact quote:  "Shaklee makes their own Protein in their own manufacturing plant."  I have no doubt that they mix/blend the drink mix up at their own facilities, but they don't make their own soy protein. They buy the soy protein as an ingredient and then blend it to make the shake mix in there own facilities. Certainly, if they have misled you on this, who knows what else they have taught you.

Bob Comments: 

 He still does not get it. If Shaklee mixes/blends their protein drink in their own facilities along with other special ingredients they have found proven in research to make their product effective, does this not mean they are making their own Soy Protein product? He said, “ Shaklee simply private-labels the protein from another company, and it can be bought cheaper at Xxxx.

What he is stuck on is only part of what makes Shaklee’s finished Soy Protein product what it is and why it is different. That is what the published research Shaklee has done is all about. It is their Complete Soy Protein product, not any single ingredient but the finished Shaklee Soy Protein product that provides the results.

Is a Ford and a Chevy the EXACT same car because they both have Firestone tires?

 Xxxx’s reply continues on:  

I have a good feeling that you will accept this because you really believe in Shaklee, and seeing how you approached us first, you obviously are already having doubts to even be inquiring about Xxxx.  

It is a deal my friend? Let's have virtual handshake right now -
Xxxx, MD
CEO and Medical Director
Xxxx Laboratories

 

Bob replies to their email:

So now we are playing "Lets make a deal"? Let me get something straight with you right now so we both understand each other.

I never said that Shaklee does not purchase raw ingredients from different suppliers, of course they do, the same way other nutritional companies do. What I did say was that Shaklee makes their own Protein in their own manufacturing plant. Let me explain so I know you will get it right this time.

 You said Shaklee simply private-labels the protein from another company, which is a false statement and a very misleading statement as well.

If this was true, which it is not, it would mean that Shaklee only makes their own label at their manufacturing facility and just slaps it on a can of protein from another company. This is so far from the truth and shows just how little you know about testing and providing a quality product! Here are just some of the facts that make Shaklee products different:

As many as 63,000 laboratory tests for quality are performed on Shaklee nutritional products and their ingredients in a single year. They test the raw ingredients coming in, unlike most companies, and they have been known to reject them if they do not meet their high standards. This does not mean other companies would refuse these same raw ingredients to be used in their products, most have no testing in place at all, if they even have a manufacturing plant, they simply take the suppliers word for it.

As many as 176 separate tests for purity, freshness, potency, and safety are performed on the raw ingredients for a single product. Shaklee products undergo as many as 262 separate quality assurance tests throughout the manufacturing process. Many of these tests are preformed on the finished product to be sure all product label claims are based on documented substantiation, not hearsay, testimonials, or anecdotal evidence such as your product.

While any two nutritional supplements may resemble one another in the sense that they utilize the proper nutrients in their respective formulations, the ingredients used may still differ in type and quality as markedly as a second-hand car does from a new Mercedes. Oftentimes, lower-priced products are usually synonymous with inexpensive (or even inferior) raw materials. Moreover, with the consumer in mind, there remain questions related to issues such as ingredient safety, product testing, and so on. Shaklee is among the very few manufacturers who have its own manufacturing facility and who regularly test their products for safety and efficacy with the consumer in mind.

A good example of this was our decision to discontinue making Asian Ginseng Complex. We became aware that Panax ginseng imported from China during the 1998 season was contaminated by a fungicide. This was an industry-wide problem. Though the FDA determined that the levels of the fungicide were not harmful and that the fungicide-contaminated ginseng compounds could continue to be sold in the United States, Shaklee decided to discontinue its ginseng product until a pure source of ginseng could be found. We were the only company to do so! 

 People have come to depend on Shaklee over all these years because they know the quality, safely, and effectiveness will always be number one with Shaklee products. They know they can always count on this without the smoke and mirrors that you have given me about your company so far or all the hype you have on your web site.

I asked about what could you tell me about the background of your medical staff at Xxxx Laboratories. The only answer I received from your company was "Dr. Xxxx is the Medical Director of Xxxx Laboratories"

So I guess you are it!

Then I am told that you serve as a consultant for several nationally known healthcare leaders and companies. When I ask for details about this, the only answer I get back from your RN, Xxxx, is..."The consultant list for Dr. Xxxx is confidential as I'm sure you can understand". What kind of answer it that?

Then I am told to purchase the book of Dr. Xxxx because she was on the Oprah show yesterday and she writes about your product. Is this the best you have to offer people wanting to now about your company and the research done on your products? Well Shaklee does not hide facts as you claim Shaklee does. Even if you refuse to offer me any concrete information about your company, I will tell you about the members of the Shaklee Scientific Advisory Board.

The Shaklee Scientific Advisory Board is a group of nationally recognized physicians and scientists who provides unsurpassed expertise in nutrition, biochemistry, cardiovascular health, and sports medicine.

It was first formed in 1981 when Shaklee was asked to be the Official Nutrition Consultant to the U.S Ski team. On that day, they inaugurated their first scientific symposium, "Nutritional Determinants in Athletic Performance" which was a two-day event cosponsored with Stanford University's Heart Disease Prevention Program and the American College of Sports Medicine. The published book that came from this symposium proceeding has since become a reference source for medical journals such as The Physician and Sports Medicine.

Current members of the Shaklee Scientific Advisory Board are:

Jeffrey Blumberg, Ph.D., F.A.C.N.
Professor, Chief of Antioxidants Research Laboratory, Associate Director, U.S.D.A. Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University

William Haskell, Ph.D.
Professor of Medicine, Deputy Director of Center for Research and Disease Prevention, Division of Cardiology, Stanford University School of Medicine

Peter Sacks, M.D.
Division of Internal Medicine, Scripps Clinic Medical Group, Inc. Scripps Clinic and Research Foundation

Julian Spallholz, Ph.D.
Professor of Food and Nutrition, Department of Food and Nutrition, Texas Tech University

Myron Winick, M.D.
Professor of Nutrition and Pediatrics (Emeritus), Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons.

The Shaklee Scientific Advisory Board of this caliber and expertise is most unique among the food supplement companies. These scientists do not merely offer their names, credentials, and pictures. This is a hard working group whose impressive knowledge and experience benefit Shaklee consumers in the form of peerless products and programs. Shaklee has led the industry in nutritional research, technology and product innovation since its founding four decades ago.

Shaklee has access to the world's largest research library in the scientific and professional field. The national Library of Medicine (NLM) is just one of over 250 databases directly tied into Shaklee's computer system. Through this one database alone, Shaklee has access to over 3000 journals, some 5 million entries!

The Forrest C. Shaklee Research Center subscribes to over 100 journals; plus they have access to the Stanford Medical School Library, the University of California, San Francisco, Medical Center Library and others.

Who is hiding the facts or misleading whom here? Will you send me the list of your Scientific Advisory Board now, or have you already done so when I was told it was you? Do you realize that Shaklee products were around before you were even born! They already had their products on the market while you were still going to grade school!

You said seeing how I approached you first, I obviously am already having doubts about Shaklee to even be inquiring about Xxxx. Here again you are so far from the facts. I wish you would have at least read my first letter to your company and why I was writing to it. Just to repeat myself again so you know what I wrote, and so you do not continue to make more false statements, I will tell you again. 

I wrote: "I was led to your web site by a friend and she said that you have extensive research on your Xxxx Soy protein product. I have spent about an hour reading over your site but I cannot find any documented published clinical research on any of your products. Can you help me"? You could have just answered me and said ........ NO, There is no documented published clinical research on our product at this time.

That would have been at least truthful and right to the point. Instead I get everything I did not even ask for and more, but no research.

You want me to start using Xxxx soy protein, tell all of my friends and downline, and that you will give me the first year's supply at 25% discount.

My answer to the deal you offer me is that you could not even pay me enough to use your product based on what you have told me so far about your company and your background! But your offer does tell me a little about how you may be going about getting people to endorse your product and lend their name to it. Shaklee would never sink to this low of a level nor would they ever have too!

More to come next week,

Bob 

Their Response to this email was:

Hi Bob! Let's keep this friendly now, less histrionic, and focused on the main question. Does Shaklee make their own soy protein as you ADOMENTLY assert they do. The other question is: Did they mislead you intentionally or was it a silly misinterpretation on your part?

Bob Comments: 

Did you catch what he said in his opening statement? He said, “Let’s focus on the main question.” Was not the main question about the research on his product? Whatever happened to that question? I also believed I have already answered his question in the last email why Shaklee’s protein is different. I guess he needed me to add the word “product” after protein so he could understand it.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:  

Remember now that none of this truth is on our web site. We are a friendly competitor to Shaklee. We don't have a single word about them on our web site. It is only because I pity how misinformed many people are that I'm even taking time to straighten this out for you. I would be glad to speak with you and the R.D. that you got the preliminary info from on a conference call.

Please let me know if you want to set that up. My objective is to show you the truth. It sounds like you are starting to agree with me that Shaklee doesn't make their own soy protein: First, you tell me that Shaklee makes their own soy protein. Remember that you called their 800 line and the rep didn't know a thing about Xxxx. Remember?  You were CLEARLY denying that Shaklee gets its protein from another company!!!!

Bob Comments: 

No, I was not CLEARLY denying this; I did not know where Shaklee got their protein ingredients.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:                

that’s why you were getting the written statements. And now you are hedging your story. Here is your latest reply.

"Let me get something straight with you right now so we both understand each other.

I never said that Shaklee does not purchase raw ingredients from different suppliers, of course they do, the same way other nutritional companies do. What I did say was that Shaklee makes their own Protein in their own manufacturing plant. Let me explain so I know you will get it right this time.

You said Shaklee simply private-labels the protein from another company, which is a false statement and a very misleading statement as well. If this was true, which it is not, it would mean that Shaklee only makes their own label at their manufacturing facility and just slaps it on a can of protein from another company. This is so far from the truth and shows just how little you know about testing and providing a quality product!"

Now that is a change in your story Bob.  You have to be consistent.

 Bob Comments: 

He is saying I changed the story, but in reality I tried to clarify it for him but he did not like what I said.

He said that the Shaklee Soy protein is the exact same as Xxxx’s Soy protein and that there is no difference. He also said I would save a lot of money buying theirs instead of Shaklee. However, he even admits that only the soy may be the same, but that all the other ingredients are different. I am glad I kept all of these emails in the order as they happened. Anyone can go back and see what he has said.

I am only stating to him that he is wrong by saying that they are both the same products because they are not the same and he knows it. But what he wants to do is stay focused on just one part of the total finished product so he can try to prove his point instead of comparing both finished products.

It would be like saying peanuts and peanut butter is the exact same product. When I say they are two different products, he returns and talks just about the peanut and then says they are the same product. They may both be peanuts at the beginning, but they certainly are not the same when a person buys and uses them. Try buying a can of roasted peanuts and spreading them on a slice of bread and see what kind of results you get. They are both now changed and contain different ingredients and provide different results!

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

Part of your problem is that you are confusing your terminology.  Let me delineate it clearly for you:
"Protein" = soy protein isolate Shaklee Energizing/etc. Drink Mix = soy protein isolate, plus other ingredients Shaklee buys soy protein isolate from other company and mixes with other ingredients. Leading Xxxx brand buys soy protein isolate from other company and mixes with other ingredients at a much cheaper cost.

 Bob Comments: 

Now look very closely at what he is saying here. If Shaklee buys raw ingredients from a supplier, which I already told him they do as others do, and in this case soy protein isolate, and they then blend other ingredients of their own, based on their own published research, would that be the same exact product as Xxxx?

If Xxxx also buys their raw ingredient from the same supplier but then adds different ingredients they chose to add which may be less effective or not effective at all in sustaining their product in it’s finished form, it certainly cannot be said to be the exact same product. Did they do any testing on their finished product for results and safety? The bottom line is that the two finished products are no longer the same because they have been altered and are surly now completely two different Soy Protein products with two different results!

If you want to do a test to see if this is true, take two sunflower seeds and place one in the oven and bake it. Then place them side-by-side and ask someone if they are both sunflower seeds. They of course would say yes. Now plant both of them in the ground and see which one will grow. Only one will grow because the other one has been altered, and there is no longer any life force in it. So it is no longer the same, nor can it provide the same results.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

I realize it is very painful for you to realize that Shaklee doesn't make their own protein - they buy it and mix it into their drink mix. Don't feel bad. I've spoken to thousands of Shaklee users (they contact us) and they are all under the same impression that Shaklee manufacturers their own protein from scratch. The EXACT, IDENTICAL soy protein ingredient is used in the leading Xxxx brand, and many other brands, and at a much lower price.  

This all leads to the obvious question:  Why are you asking for a written answer on this from Shaklee if you don't already have the answer in print? If you are so sure of your answer, then go ahead and fax over the source of your information right now to me. What led you to believe this?

Bob Comments: 

He tries to get me to feel bad about this and believes he knows how all Shaklee users feel. He continues to ask me to send all of this information about Shaklee to him but yet refuses to offer me any solid information on his product.

I am beginning to question if he really is a doctor who he claims to be. After all, if their advertising is misleading, how do I know what his background is? He never proved it to me; in fact, he has not proven anything at this point to me. Everything he has said up to this point has all been just hearsay.

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

Are you saying that you agree with me now?  I can't believe that you are afraid to accept my offer. I guess your 'faith' has failed. This will make a great write up for our materials on how you will have to concede this point to me at some time. Maybe next week when you get the written statements you will see it my way. Fax them to Xxxx to my attention.

Shaklee doesn't make their own protein Bob. I'm sorry. I hope that you have enough dignity to concede a point. Were you ever on a debate team? You are very good. After you concede this point, I can share more with you about our research, etc. because at that point you will start doubting what you have been taught all of these years.

Bob Comments: 

He should say he could then start feeding me more false statements he has up his sleeve. Why not tell me about his so called research when I first asked him? Why does it have to wait until I believe him on this? Is it because he wants to see just how much I will believe in what he has to say before he can feed me more? After all, he is a doctor. What right do I have to question him?

Xxxx’s reply continues on:

Unrelated question: Why aren't any of the supplement facts/nutritional facts listed on Shaklee's e-commerce site? We were told this is a violation of law. Every major site lists supplement facts for the products being sold. I can't even find an ingredient listing for the soy drink mix. Help!
Dr. Xxxx
Xxxx, MD
CEO and Medical Director
Xxxx Laboratories

Their Response again same day:

I will try to get to all of these for you. Please don't misinterpret any of my comments. I really enjoy your refreshing tenacity!  Again, Shaklee is a quality company. Xxxx is not out trying to steal Shaklee customers. We don't even mention you on our web site.

1.  "Shaklee has access to the world's largest research library in the scientific and professional field. The national Library of Medicine (NLM) is just one of over 250 data bases directly tied into Shaklee's computer system. Through this one data base alone, Shaklee has access to over 3000 journals, some 5 million entries!"

Bob, I'm really doubting anything you say now.  You will have to laugh when you click on this link: Xxxx Anyone, medical or not, can go directly to this database. Yes, it is the same one that is "directly tied" into Shaklee's computer system. Our team uses it all of the time. You have to admit that this is a little bit funny. We will straighten this out with the R.D. on the conference call. She will confirm that this is correct. Let's see if Shaklee makes their head scientist available to talk with Xxxx Medical Director. This will show which company is open for discussion. Don't you agree? Let me know when this can be arranged ASAP.

 Bob Comments: 

Did you catch what he just did here? He did not read everything I wrote, even though he copied and pasted it here. He only looked to see what he could try to find fault with so he could make it out that he knows better.

If you read what I said above or in my pass email, I wrote that this was one of 250 data bases tied into Shaklee’s computer system. Why is it he only focused on this one database but forgot about the other 249 databases? My statement was not that others do not have use of some of these. Of course they do--just not all of them. He even admits that his team uses this one but what he confidently left out was that this database might be all they have for their use!

 Xxxx’s reply continues on: